Ben Lamm (on de-extinction) | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

1. Ben Lamm: From E-Learning to De-Extinction

Timestamp: 00:04:47 to 00:09:47

Ben Lamm details his entrepreneurial journey, starting with an e-learning company called Simply Interactive in 2004, followed by several other ventures in gaming and technology. This foundational experience in building and selling companies, particularly in tech, provided him with the skills and capital to pursue his ambitious de-extinction project with Colossal Biosciences.

Significance (Medium): Establishes Lamm's credentials as a seasoned entrepreneur, lending credibility to his ability to execute complex, capital-intensive projects like de-extinction.

Sources in support: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

Neutral sources: Dax Shepard (Host)

2. George Church: The Father of Synthetic Biology

Timestamp: 00:08:31 to 00:12:31

Dax Shepard introduces George Church as a pivotal figure in synthetic biology and genetic engineering, highlighting his professorship at Harvard and his early work with CRISPR technology. Church's unique approach, characterized by a belief in open-source collaboration and democratizing genetic information, positions him as a visionary in the field.

Significance (Medium): Frames George Church as a leading scientific authority, underscoring the scientific rigor and potential of the de-extinction project by associating it with his expertise.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

3. Ben Lamm: The Mammoth's Call

Timestamp: 00:13:31 to 00:18:31

Ben Lamm recounts his pivotal conversation with George Church in 2019, where Church revealed his lifelong ambition to resurrect the woolly mammoth. This conversation ignited Lamm's passion, leading him to believe that de-extinction was a unique opportunity to make a profound impact on the world, far beyond typical business success.

Significance (High): This narrative arc explains the genesis of Colossal Biosciences and Lamm's personal commitment, framing the company's mission as a grand, almost destined, scientific endeavor.

Sources in support: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

Neutral sources: Dax Shepard (Host)

4. The Mammoth Genome: Assembling the Past

Timestamp: 00:16:22 to 00:19:22

Ben Lamm explains the intricate process of reconstructing the woolly mammoth genome from fragmented DNA found in permafrost samples. He clarifies that while complete carcasses have been found, viable cells are rare, necessitating the piecing together of genetic information from multiple sources and aligning it with the Asian elephant's genome, which is 99.6% genetically similar.

Significance (Medium): Demystifies the complex genetic work involved, highlighting the scientific challenges and the sophisticated techniques required to recreate an extinct species' genetic blueprint.

Sources in support: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

Neutral sources: Dax Shepard (Host)

5. Ben Lamm: The Entrepreneurial Approach to De-Extinction

Timestamp: 00:21:42 to 00:24:56

Ben Lamm explains his role in Colossal Biosciences is not as a scientist, but as an entrepreneur skilled in building teams, solving engineering challenges, and raising capital. He emphasizes that the company's core product is the advanced genetic engineering and synthetic biology platform, not just the de-extinct animals themselves. This platform, he argues, has broader applications in agriculture, healthcare, and environmental solutions, drawing parallels to how racing technology benefits production cars.

Significance (High): This framing positions Colossal not just as a novelty venture, but as a deep-tech company with significant potential for innovation across multiple sectors. It addresses potential investor skepticism by highlighting the underlying technological development and market opportunities beyond the headline-grabbing species.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

6. Colossal's Team and Recruitment Strategy

Timestamp: 00:25:22 to 00:28:35

Ben Lamm highlights the importance of building a world-class team of 260 scientists, collaborating with universities, and funding postdoctoral researchers. He notes that Colossal offers an 'unfair recruiting advantage' by providing scientists with exciting, high-impact projects, such as extracting DNA in the Arctic or working with AI for genomics, framing it as a more inspiring alternative to traditional academia or industry roles. The company also emphasizes its commitment to animal welfare and conservation partners.

Significance (High): This focus on team-building and recruitment strategy is crucial for a company operating at the cutting edge of science. By attracting top talent with compelling narratives and challenging projects, Colossal aims to accelerate its ambitious goals and differentiate itself in the competitive scientific landscape.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

7. The Science Behind Woolly Mice and Genetic Engineering

Timestamp: 00:33:22 to 00:37:40

Ben Lamm details the creation of 'woolly mice' as a key milestone, involving around 300 genetic edits to incorporate traits like hair texture and color from the woolly mammoth into mice. He explains that this process required building bespoke AI models for comparative genomics, as existing tools were not sufficient. The success in 30 days demonstrated the viability of their genetic engineering approach, highlighting the complexity of gene expression and protein folding beyond simple DNA sequences.

Significance (High): The successful creation of woolly mice serves as a proof-of-concept for Colossal's genetic engineering capabilities. It showcases their ability to translate complex genetic data into tangible biological outcomes, validating their technological approach and paving the way for larger-scale projects like the mammoth.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

8. The Dire Wolf Project: From Indigenous Lore to Genetic Reality

Timestamp: 00:40:08 to 00:43:18

The dire wolf project emerged from conversations with indigenous groups, particularly Chairman Fox of the MHA Nation, who shared ancestral stories of the great wolf. This inspired Colossal to pursue de-extinction, despite it not being an initial target. Using DNA from a 73,000-year-old skull and a 13,000-year-old tooth, they mapped the genome, finding it closer to grey wolves than jackals, contrary to some earlier theories. The project aims to bring back a species that holds cultural significance and has ecological implications.

Significance (High): This narrative highlights how cultural heritage and indigenous knowledge can intersect with cutting-edge science, driving new avenues for de-extinction research. It demonstrates Colossal's willingness to adapt its strategy based on external input and underscores the potential for these projects to have broader societal and ecological relevance.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

9. Direwolf Puppies: A Tangible Result

Timestamp: 00:43:20 to 00:46:28

Colossal Biosciences has successfully bred direwolf puppies, which are genetically modified grey wolves with approximately 20 edits. These puppies, named Romulus and Remis, were created using DNA from a 73,000-year-old skull and a 12,000-year-old tooth, and are now two years old. The company aims to lead with these tangible results, even though they are not true direwolves by strict definition. This success has garnered attention from figures like George R. R. Martin, who invested in the company.

Significance (High): Demonstrates the company's capability in genetic engineering and de-extinction, generating significant public and celebrity interest.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

10. The Ethics of De-Extinction and Human Responsibility

Timestamp: 00:45:57 to 00:48:14

Ben Lamm argues that humans have a responsibility for species extinctions, citing examples like the Megafauna in the Americas and the Tasmanian Tiger, which were eradicated due to human actions. He believes de-extinction is a way to rectify past mistakes and develop technologies that can aid in species preservation. The debate over whether these resurrected animals are truly new species or genetically modified versions of existing ones is acknowledged, with Lamm emphasizing the functional phenotypes rather than strict taxonomic definitions.

Significance (High): Frames de-extinction not just as scientific curiosity but as an ethical imperative, highlighting human impact on biodiversity.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

11. The 'Species' Debate: Mammoth vs. Elephant

Timestamp: 00:50:14 to 00:52:40

Ben Lamm addresses the semantic debate around whether their creations are true species, like mammoths, or genetically modified elephants. He argues that the definition of a species is complex and often anthropocentrically boxed. Lamm uses the analogy of polar bears and brown bears, which can interbreed but are distinct species, to illustrate that functional differences and unique traits matter more than strict reproductive compatibility. He asserts that their mammoth is essentially a cold-tolerant Asian elephant with significant genetic edits.

Significance (High): Clarifies the scientific and philosophical challenges in defining species, particularly in the context of de-extinction and genetic modification.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

12. Spin-off Technologies: Plastic Degradation

Timestamp: 01:03:02 to 01:04:05

Colossal Biosciences is leveraging its genetic engineering platform for applications beyond de-extinction. One significant spin-off is X32, which focuses on developing microbes that can break down plastic chemical bonds without creating microplastics. This technology addresses a critical environmental issue, demonstrating the broader utility of the company's core scientific capabilities.

Significance (High): Highlights the company's diversification into environmental solutions, showcasing the wide-ranging impact of their biotechnological advancements.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

13. Ben Lamm: Microbes as Plastic Recyclers

Timestamp: 01:06:11 to 01:09:11

Scientists have discovered a concert of microbes that produce an enzyme capable of breaking down plastics. By modifying these microbes, the enzyme's production can be increased, allowing for the breakdown of various plastics in significantly reduced timeframes, from centuries to months. This technology is being applied to industrial wastewater, textiles, and composting, addressing plastic contamination issues.

Significance (High): This microbial solution offers a novel approach to tackling plastic pollution, potentially revolutionizing waste management and environmental cleanup efforts by accelerating natural degradation processes.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences), Monica (Guest)

14. Ben Lamm: Germline Editing's Ethical Tightrope

Timestamp: 01:09:58 to 01:14:57

While a global moratorium exists on germline editing in humans, Ben Lamm believes humanity will eventually use this technology to eradicate specific diseases, benefiting all. He contrasts this with rogue states like China, which have made edits without full transparency. He also discusses the ethical dilemma of embryo selection, where traits like ADHD or dyslexia, which can have positive outcomes, might be screened out, questioning our ability to predict the 'upside' of genetic variations.

Significance (High): This segment highlights the profound ethical challenges and potential societal divisions surrounding germline editing, balancing the desire to eliminate disease with the risks of eugenics and unforeseen consequences.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences), Monica (Guest)

15. Dax Shepard & Monica: Invasive Species' Ecological Impact

Timestamp: 01:18:00 to 01:20:15

Dax Shepard and Monica discuss the significant ecological damage caused by invasive species, such as Asian carp in the Great Lakes, screw-worm flies in Texas, and possums in New Zealand. They highlight how these species disrupt local ecosystems, threaten native wildlife, and necessitate costly remediation efforts, underscoring the human responsibility in their introduction and the need for effective control measures.

Significance (High): This segment underscores the severe environmental and economic consequences of invasive species, framing their eradication as a critical aspect of conservation and ecological management.

Sources in support: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences), Monica (Guest)

Neutral sources: Dax Shepard (Host)

16. Ben Lamm: Advancing Synthetic Biology with Artificial Wombs

Timestamp: 01:22:38 to 01:25:45

Colossal Biosciences is developing three artificial womb projects: a marsupial culture system, a placental interface mimicking uterine wall invasion, and a system for avian embryos. These projects aim to grow animals outside of surrogates, with significant progress made in creating synthetic uterine environments and artificial eggs capable of supporting development, drawing parallels to science fiction.

Significance (High): These advancements in synthetic biology and artificial gestation represent a significant leap in reproductive technology, potentially transforming conservation efforts and our understanding of developmental biology.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences), Monica (Guest)

17. Ben Lamm: De-extinction as a Conservation Tool

Timestamp: 01:31:39 to 01:34:04

Ben Lamm argues that de-extinction is not merely about resurrecting extinct species but is a crucial tool for conservation and technological advancement. He posits that humanity's role in eradicating species necessitates a responsibility to bring them back, especially those vital to ecosystems or indigenous cultures. Lamm emphasizes that current conservation models are insufficient given the rapid rate of species loss, advocating for proactive measures like bio-vaults and genetic engineering to restore biodiversity and create backup plans for life.

Significance (High): This frames de-extinction as a necessary corrective action rather than a hubristic endeavor. It positions the technology as a vital component of future conservation strategies, directly addressing the urgency of biodiversity loss.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

18. Colossal Biosciences: A Multi-Faceted Biotech Venture

Timestamp: 01:34:10 to 01:36:14

Ben Lamm details how Colossal Biosciences is more than just a de-extinction company; it's a platform for developing and commercializing advanced biotechnologies. He highlights successful spin-off companies in drug discovery, plastic degradation, and computational biology, each achieving significant valuations. Lamm explains that the company's strategy involves licensing technologies for new businesses, exploring human healthcare applications, and addressing global economic impacts like invasive species, ultimately aiming to restore ecosystems and generate carbon credits.

Significance (High): This reveals the strategic depth of Colossal Biosciences, positioning it as a diversified biotechnology powerhouse rather than solely a de-extinction entity. It underscores the potential for significant economic returns and broad societal impact beyond the initial 'mammoth' concept.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences)

19. Ben Lamm: Gene Drives for Invasive Species

Timestamp: 01:46:47 to 01:49:37

Ben Lamm advocates for gene drives as a tool to combat invasive species, emphasizing their precision and speed compared to traditional methods. He distinguishes between using gene drives for truly invasive species that disrupt ecosystems and applying them to native populations, citing the mosquito example in Africa as a case where they are part of the food web. The technology is being piloted for species like the screw-worm fly.

Significance (High): This presents gene drives as a powerful, targeted solution for ecological restoration, offering a faster and potentially more effective alternative to current remediation efforts, though careful consideration of ecological roles is crucial.

Sources in support: Dax Shepard (Host)

Neutral sources: Ben Lamm (CEO of Colossal Biosciences), Monica (Guest)

Commercial Interest in De-Extinction (High severity)

Type: Commercial

Ben Lamm is the CEO of Colossal Biosciences, a company whose primary mission is de-extinction. This direct commercial interest means his presentation of the technology and its benefits is inherently biased towards its success and adoption.

Significance: Lamm's financial and professional stake in Colossal Biosciences raises questions about whether his enthusiasm for de-extinction is driven by scientific merit or the pursuit of profit and company growth. The audience must consider that his narrative is designed to attract investment and public support for his venture.

Commercial Interest in De-Extinction (High severity)

Type: Commercial

Ben Lamm is the CEO of Colossal Biosciences, a company whose primary mission is de-extinction and the development of related technologies. This direct financial and professional stake means his presentation of the science and its benefits is inherently tied to the company's success.

Significance: Lamm's position as CEO raises questions about whether his enthusiasm for de-extinction is driven purely by scientific advancement or also by commercial imperatives. The audience must consider that his narrative is designed to attract investment and public support for his company's ambitious and costly projects.

Financial Investment in Orchid (Low severity)

Type: Financial

Dax Shepard mentions investing in Orchid, a company providing full genome testing services, after using their service for his children.

Significance: While Shepard frames it as a positive endorsement due to satisfaction, his investment could subtly influence his perspective or questioning regarding genetic testing and embryo selection.

Petroleum Company Affiliation (Low severity)

Type: Commercial

Dax Shepard jokingly claims ownership of a petroleum refinement facility producing polyurethane, a plastic.

Significance: This is presented humorously and immediately disclaimed, suggesting it's not a genuine conflict but a lighthearted acknowledgment of the pervasive nature of plastics and potential industry ties.

Commercial Interest in De-extinction (High severity)

Type: Commercial

Ben Lamm, as CEO of Colossal Biosciences, has a direct financial stake in the success and public acceptance of de-extinction technologies. The company is valued at $10 billion and is actively seeking revenue streams from these technologies.

Significance: This significant commercial interest raises questions about whether Lamm's advocacy for de-extinction is driven by genuine scientific and conservation goals or by the pursuit of profit. The audience must consider that his presentation of the technology's benefits may be influenced by his company's financial objectives.

Promotional Aspect of Business Spin-offs (Medium severity)

Type: Commercial

Colossal Biosciences is actively creating and spinning off multiple businesses based on its core technologies, such as drug discovery and plastic degradation. Lamm discusses these spin-offs with significant valuation, highlighting their success.

Significance: While these spin-offs demonstrate technological versatility, their promotion within the context of de-extinction advocacy could be seen as a strategy to bolster the parent company's image and valuation. It suggests that the de-extinction mission might also serve as a platform for broader commercial ventures.